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December 1, 2007
Sorting Out My Mixed Feelings Over the Milledge Deal
[Editor’s note: From time-to-time, the MetsGeek editors may come across a particularly poignant or informative user journal. When that happens, the journal will be highlighted via a promotion to the site’s main page. Today, we’d like to present this journal written by user MetsFanSince71. Enjoy!] My initial reaction to the trade of Lastings Milledge was one of shock and disbelief. I thought to myself, “What a horrible trade!” and “How could this happen!?” However, I never viewed this trade for even a second as destroying the Mets. Why? Simply because we did NOT trade David Wright, Jose Reyes or Carlos Beltran. All of whom are superstars and the Mets core players right now and for many years to come. Most of baseball would drool to have that trio to build around. I am thrilled and grateful they’ll continue to be here. We did not trade away an established superstar in Milledge; at best, we traded potential. And potential is always a risky game. Today, while my feelings are still somewhat mixed, I’m getting more comfortable with “life without Milledge.” I am not devastated at all. And while I feel it’s urgent for the Mets to shore up the pitching, I don’t believe for even a nanosecond that losing Milledge makes us a “non-contender for years to come” as I’ve seen written here and elsewhere. For starters, I have to chuckle at all the “internet GMs” who are saying who we should have gotten for Milledge. One even questioned why we didn’t traded him for Garland. Now, don’t you think Minaya called the White Sox, knowing they crave a CF? I believe that knowing the needs of all the other teams is part of Omar’s job. GMs constantly work the phones, as they’re paid to do. Therefore, there’s no question in my mind that anyone offered us a better package for Lastings. It simply never materialized. While many may disagree with me, I cannot say that Omar Minaya didn’t do all his homework on finding the right trade partner. The evidence seems to point to the fact that he did try to trade Milledge many times over the past 2-3 years and was either (a) rebuffed each time or (b) decided to hold back and see if Milledge would blossom here in New York or (c) wait for a better package to materialize. Now that Lastings is gone, the notion of calling for Omar’s head over this trade is just flat-out ridiculous to me. Also, Minaya should not be cast in the same light as the panic-stricken Jim Duquette who foolishly traded away Scott Kazmir for known damaged goods. Ace pitchers are extremely hard to find. Corner outfielders aren’t. Comparing the Kazmir trade to the Milledge trade is apples and oranges. Either way, Lastings Milledge has not yet donned a Nationals uniform and until he does, the final assessment of this trade (and perhaps of Omar himself) simply cannot be made. That being said, the question should be asked: Why did we trade him at all? That’s where my mixed feelings enter the picture…. Mixed Feeling #1: Let’s assume that we could have waited and sold higher; a case can certainly be made that the Mets should have held onto Milledge and waited for his stock to rise again. But would that stock have risen with 500 ABs and a full year? Or would he produce the same 270-280 average that we’re probably going to get from Ryan Church? I tend to believe it would not have risen enough to make his trade value any higher than it was yesterday. At the same time, unless Milledge brought us back a front line pitcher this winter, I would have been willing to give him a full year to prove me wrong. Mixed Feeling #2: In the end, Minaya and the Mets organization lost patience with Milledge: his plate discipline, iffy baseball instincts and all the on- and off-field antics. I think Minaya did give Milledge a long enough leash regarding his immaturity. Minaya even publicly defended him. However, I do strongly feel that the Wilpons did not agree with Omar on Milledge, and simply wanted this kid out of New York for fear those antics would only have gotten worse. I myself am not judging Milledge’s character here at all. I’m merely pointing out how I believe the Mets viewed it. And apparently - be it fair or unfair - around much of baseball the Mets weren’t alone. My mixed feelings enter here over whether any ball player should be judged solely on his performance or if his alleged antics should also be considered. Which “antics” are acceptable and which ones aren’t? Was Lastings becoming a distraction to the Mets? Or would he have been in the future? I find those all very tough questions to answer. Mixed Feeling #3: Of course, I wanted Milledge to fetch more. Even Garland alone, for example, might have been a nicer catch than Schneider and Church. But still, I can certainly understand Minaya’s rationale and what an incredibly tough call this was for him to make. I think in his own mind, he was at a crossroads with Lastings and Minaya felt it was time to finally roll the dice. I don’t see it as a panic move at all. Nor do I see this as an attempt to garner headlines. Was he pressured by the media? No, I don’t buy that at all. Was he pressured by ownership? Yes, I do believe he was, but to what extent we’ll never really know. In the end, it was a baseball decision and Minaya felt the right time was now, rather than later. But again, was this the right time to deal him? For example, would the A’s have finally relented and taken Milledge as so many people previously assumed they would? And while we’re talking about Oakland, what did sour Billy Beane on Milledge in the space of a year or so? Mixed Feeling #4: Increasingly over the past two years, I never truly thought the Mets saw Milledge as a fit in their long-term plans. I believe they hold outfielders Carlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez in much higher regard and viewed Lastings as (hopefully) a valuable trade chip to showcase. (Granted, they did a pretty mediocre job showcasing him!) But will the speedy and athletic Gomez ever hit on the big league level? Will Fernando stay healthy and be the superstar many project him to be? OR did we just trade away the best player of the three? The deal is done and I think we should at least make an attempt to make the best of it. Now, onto the players we got for Lastings…. Brian Schneider I think the Mets did strengthen themselves with Brian. Unless your name is Mike Piazza, I’ve always favored a defensively skilled catcher over an offensively skilled one. The Nationals had a very mediocre staff last year and it seems to me that Schneider did an excellent job handling them. I think the tandem of Castro-Schneider could prove to be among the best in the National League. Plus, I’m hoping that Schneider brings along his rumored leadership skills as well - something sorely lacking on the Mets. Maybe Ryan does blossom here with 500+ at bats. I liken him to Xavier Nady in the sense that I believe the skills are there to play everyday, but he never really was given the chance - that is until Manny Acta played him everyday and he hit .300. The kid is a terrific defender, who can play all three outfield positions. As for his hitting skills, I have to credit Chris in GA for pointing out to me (through links to stats and graphs) what a very good gap hitter Church is. I think that will play well in a pitcher’s park like Shea Stadium. All in all, I feel Church will give us good flexibility both defensively and as a lefty bat. Overall, I think the Mets do come away with more flexibility in the outfield and are now much stronger behind the plate. Yes, even though it cost us Lastings Milledge, I believe we did get better. But don’t get me wrong, there’s still a lot of work to do with the pitching staff. Final Thoughts In the end, my mixed feelings still linger. I truly do wish Lastings Milledge all the best. I never hated the kid. I simply never projected him as a future superstar or as the franchise savior. Maybe he’ll be all that for the Washington Nationals. Only time will tell. 56 Responses to “Sorting Out My Mixed Feelings Over the Milledge Deal”Leave a ReplyYou must be logged in to post a comment. |
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I like Church myself. I think given a full year’s worth of at bats in Shea Stadium (pitcher park but favorable to lefty power hitters), I could see him getting something around the likes of .280/.360/.490 with, say, 22 homers, 70 RBI’s. Not bad for a #7 hitter.
My personal problem with the trade is that I just haven’t been convinced we NEEDED to do it. Is having Schneider that much better than Estrada (who I think will end up getting non-tendered)? Is Church that much better than Milledge? Time will tell, I guess.
Wow! I got promoted?!
Thank you, Head Geeks!
I am both flattered and humbled :)
Nice Journal 71! We seem to be of a like mind about a lot of things Mets related. I thought a few weeks ago that Omar might go after Schneider, due to his excellent rep as a handler of pitching staffs and team leader. This is stuff that is very hard to measure and is thus underrated by the average fan (and the stat-oriented fan).
I wish that we had gotten a reliever back, even if it meant expanding the deal. As it is, I think Church will do fine for the Mets, if he´s here in April. If it came to a trade for a top pitcher (Bedard?), I´d prefer that Church go before Gomez– I´ve just got a good feeling about CarGo, and I hope we keep him.
I wish Lastings all the best. Time will tell who ultimately gets the better of this deal.
If that’s the case then I move to have him bat 2nd and put Castillo as the 7th hitter.
If Church is indeed the base-stealing threat that Minaya has portrayed him as, then I’m all for him batting 2nd.
thanks, Dave :)
One last note on my journal:
By writing this, I sincerely intend NO disrespect to my fellow Geeks here who may still be agonizing over this trade. Trust me: I was a 16 year old Met fan growing up in Jersey when Tom Seaver was traded and I’m not at all ashamed to admit that I literally cried that day.
Great job 71, your comments make a lot of sense.
Great post, sums up the current situation well.
Chances are if the mets had stayed with Lastings he would keep showing “flashes” of brilliance but overall never really become the star people first made him out to be. NYC is a tough town for someone labeled early in their career as a “star.” I don’t think Lastings had the internal make up to handle it.
Did Minaya really say that? Church is 31-for-50 (62%) in stolen bases over 581 minor league games and 12-for-17 (70.6%) in 347 major league games. If he is indeed a base-stealing threat then he is certainly doing a great job disguising it.
Yes, Minaya has alluded to that, Eric, saying Church
is speedy and certainly capable of stealing more bases.
Not saying I necessarily agree with Omar on that,
but who knows? The Mets do like to run, so maybe
Church improves that part of his game here.
But the thing is, you CAN compare apples to oranges. They’re both fruits. I don’t know why people are always saying they can’t compare them. Come on, people, think outside the box just for a second!
Oh and I agree with your comments, MFS. Thanks for taking the time.
LOL, Mr Met! :)
Thanks!
I believe it all boils down to this:
Let’s just assume Church stays here for the next 3-4 years and is eventually replaced by FMart or Gomez. Will Church + FMart/Gomez combined be better than Milledge over the next 10-15 years?
That’s the root of my mixed feelings.
Great post/journal/article MFS. While I am still not a fan of the trade, you brought a much-needed voice of reason to the page.Nicely done!
Thanks, 86!
Much appreciated :)
The most important things for a 2 hitter according to sabermetrics is slugging percentage. Therefore I want Church hitting second.
Well, that is the point, isn’t it?
Reyes, Beltran and Wright ARE essentially the team now.
They’re the only three genuine above-average or better position players at the beginning of or in their prime. Delgado’s nearly done, Alou’s fragile, Castillo’s perhaps even more fragile. Church is meh, Schneider is less-than-meh offensively.
Three guys to pitch around and five guys who are either seven/eight hitters or total health question-marks?
And if Beltran gets dinged up while Reyes is on one of his two slumps a year?
You’re down to one actual full-on hitter on the team.
At least with Estrada and Milledge, you had two guys who… even if they weren’t going to hit like All-Stars, you were gonna get .280-.290 with occasional sparks of power out of them. A good compliment to those stars, in the very least.
A more-than-capable punch for the five/six of the order.
Now the whhhhhhoooooolllle offensive ballgame for the Mets is on three guys.
Not a good thing. Not not not a good thing.
Which line-up do you prefer?
Reyes/Milledge/Beltran/Wright/Alou/Estrada/Delgado/Gotay
OR
Reyes/…Castillo, I guess/Beltran/Wright/Alou/Delgado/Church/Schneider
Just honestly.
Which of those has a better chance to win the NL East?
LMAO eric
The team with a combination of good pitching, good bullpen and good offense.
When was the last time you saw anyone win anything with strictly offense? Have you noticed when the Yanks have no pitching, it doesn’t matter how good their offense is? Just an observation. Did you notice that the Red Sox had pitching, bullpen and offense? Did you notice that the Rockies vaunted offense didn’t look so vaunted against the Red Sox pitching? Just something to ponder.
71…..you did good!
aww, thank you, shea :)
Congrats on the promoted journal buddy. Very well written. I have similar sentiments and I’m glad that you put it to words.
I do believe Ryan Church is a 2 hitter and I can get behind him there. I actually think that he will slot into the 7th spot given the affinity that Willie and Luis have for productive outs out of the second hole. A lot will depend on Delgado’s ability to bounce back. The Mets would probably prefer to bat him 5th and Alou 6th but aren’t shy to flip those guys.
Willie-Ball, aka I have no idea what I am doing…will hit Castillo all season in the 2 spot. At least Castillo can get on base.
LF, on what planet is Estrada/Lastings “keys” to a lineup and yet Church apparently is a worthless 8th place hitter?
I understand you apparently thoguht Milledge was the greatest player ever to play the game, but these comparisons are just getting less and less valid to me.
I still don’t like the trade, but MFS71 pretty much lines up what is going on in my head fairly accurately. I don’t hate Church, and I do think Brian will be a useful cog to the team. I would rather see what Lastings could do next year then what we got back, but to say we are suddenly much worth for NEXT YEAR is something I don’t buy. Where we lost is what Milledge COULD HAVE BEEN over the next 3 years. Next year? We have a more guaranteed output of what we should have HOPED we would have received from Milledge next year.
Is it possible Lastings will perenial 300/25/90 RBI guy? I really view that as his ceiling especially in power which I never see really topping 20 consistently. Certainly a very nice player to have, but on this board apparently we just traded the next Gary Sheffield for a couple of guys who will rot on the bench and hit 220 in 200 at bats.
Very well put MF, congrats for the promotion
BTW, I wonder if Omar isn’t having a little buyers remorse on Castro, wouldn’t Schneider/Estrada be a better pair then Brian/Castro
Thanks, Chris…..I actually should’ve credited you a bit more in the journal because your comments last night did indeed have an influence on at least part of my thought process here :)
I thought about that James, and my conclusion is that it was smart not to bring in TWO unknown catchers for the pitching staff to adjust to. I think Castro’s popularity and knowledge of Mets pitchers are fine reasons to retain him. He also gives us a nice bat in the back-up role.
And I’m sure Castro and Schneider will be exchanging a lot of notes next spring - and for the Mets, that’s a very good thing.
71, excellent point about some continuity with Castro. Two catchers with total unfamiliarity with the pitching staff is probably not a good thing. Schneider/Castro works for me.
Lastings and Estrada were going to be legitimate 2/5/6 hitters that would at least give you a moment’s pause before working around the three Full-On Bats the team has. I’m not saying All-Stars.
I’m saying… solid enough hitters where you couldn’t laugh them off and just wait out the Big Sticks until you got to… Castillo’s infield ground-out or Schneider’s weak pop-up or whatever short single Church would give you here or there.
Or Delgado’s faded-out two-feet-before-the-warning-track fly ball. Or whatever.
Which combo do you take this year? Mills/Estrada or Church/Schneider? Next year?
Hell, two years down the road even though Estrada probably wouldn’t be involved that far down the road, but for the sake of argument.
Let’s open it up. Which trio do you take this year, next year, a year down the road?
Mills/Estrada/Gotay or Church/Castillo/Schneider?
O8, 09, 10… I got my answers and its the same everytime.
You get nine men as your starting line-up.
In the National League, you essentially throw one out the window… if you got a pitcher who can swing a little, that’s great but it’s kind of only bonus points so we’ll disregard it for now.
Can we really say that the “difference” is minor, is small-enough to not count when you’ve only got eight hitters to speak of to begin with?
Say you give your three best hitters the 1, 3 and 4 slots, okay?
That’s fine, the Mets have guys that thoroughly deserve those slots if they’re healthy. And the nine-hole is a given as a crapshoot.
Five more slots, though.
Castillo’ll hit… .270, maybe? With an OBP of .320 and a SLG of exactly whatever the hell his AVG is, right? I’m exaggerating for comic effect but God help me, only slightly here.
Schneider’ll hit nothing. What did he hit last year, .235 with no power? Ollie might out-hit him if given the same number of at-bats.
Delgado’ll hit around .250… occasional bursts of power and then long stretches of doing nothing because he’s overswinging and intermittently injured. That boat done sailed a long time ago.
Alou MIGHT have another season of inexplicably hitting well over .300 in him… or he might not. He might pull up lame in mid-May or his age might finally catch up to him as… it basically has to soon. He’s gonna be 42, gentlemen and a few ladies. As great at that .341 looks on the baseball card, he did it in 87 games, y’all.
And Church in his first season with roughly an everyday starter’s at-bats, at the age of twenty eight years old mind you, hit… .272… didn’t walk all that much, hit 15 home runs in admittedly a big park. Hitting against a left-handed pitcher, again, Ollie Perez could probably give him a run for his money, average-wise.
A maybe in Alou, a possibly not in Castillo, two probably nots in Delgado and Church and a definitely not in the form of Schneider.
Basically, if Alou goes down for any length of time in the season, there are no even COMPLIMENTARY at-bats in the line-up for the three legit hitters on this team.
Two has-beens and two never-weres, in the parlance of “Major League”.
Milledge and Gotay at least had PROMISE, were COULD-bes and… Estrada, however much of a d–chebag he might be, swings a good stick for a backstop.
And Delgado… well… there’s only one year left on his contract.
This needed to be the year you mostly rolled on the strength of your young talent, at least positionally, and hoped that their development and whatever pitching you could get would be enough to roll on with.
Wait out the last year of Delgado’s torpedo of a contract, y’know.
Have Milledge and Gomez and Gotay all ready for 09, sign up Texiara and the best catcher you could get… maybe even Estrada if he proved healthy and productive… next winter and roll on.
Or even if Gotay doesn’t pan out, buy a new one next off-season.
I’m not asking to be the Marlins or the Pirates here.
I’m asking to be the Angels or the Red Sox here. That’s how they do things, develop what they can from within first and… only then do they buy what they can’t make from within.
And those guys are in the playoffs a lot, kids.
This here, giving up on Milledge for PR purposes…
It’s a Yankees after the Gold Rush move.
It bites the big helium dog.
Right now, all I’m saying, for you people into the whole brevity thing…
If Reyes is in one of his impatient-hitting moods, basically all you gotta do is work around Wright and Beltran… IF Beltran’s healthy… and then wait for Alou to get injured. The NL East has an easily executed battleplan to cripple the Mets hitting, now.
Don’t give Wright or Beltran much to hit and… Reyes can steal second all he wants, Castillo can sacrifice runners all he wants, Delgado can fly out a pace before the warning track all he wants and…
The Mets just ain’t gonna score much.
At this point, things are so effed that I’d practically wanna go to the dark side all together and sign Andruw Jones so that I don’t have to put up with pitchers getting Church out by switching which hand they throw with, for God’s friggin.
If you were gonna sign Tori Hunter and stick Church on the bench, this deal would ALMOST make sense… almost almost almost.
I’m asking to be the Angels or the Red Sox here. That’s how they do things, develop what they can from within first and… only then do they buy what they can’t make from within. And those guys are in the playoffs a lot…”
different strokes…Mets’ goal as the owner candidly admitted is to play meaningful September games…and Minaya/Randolph have delivered 2 for 2.
LFM….. Good thing you weren’t a Giants fan when the Giants got AJ Pierzynski for Joe Nathan, Franciso Liriano and Boof Bonser.
Ok, so you are just horridly undervaluing Church. 660 SLG, 43 Doubles and 15 HRs in that gigantic stadium is not “short singles”. I understand your affinity for Lastings, but you are selling Church far short.
James…you have take anything LFM says with a grain of salt. I believe he’s certifiable. Don’t even pay attention. Life is too short….lol!
i have pictures of kazmir in a mets uniform. i treasure them alongst side our lost no. 44.
no way was this trade right. only tropical fish eat their young like this…
#31
Yeah, the Angels and Red Sox suck. They haven’t won WS in like, forever.
#32
So, you want the Mets to become the Giants? And Omar Minaya to make Brian Sabean type decisions?
I’m not a big fan of this type of journal. I don’t understand why folks just can’t except a bad trade. Church is a fourth outfielder on a playoff team. Schneider is on the decline defensively and offensively and he was a bad offensive player to begin with. Milledge may or may not be a star, but he was clearly better than either of these players. Omar got had, it happens. Let’s try not to sugarcoat it.
If you carefully read my journal, I didn’t sugarcoat this trade. My intent was to point out my mixed feelings over it. I, too, struggled over this being a bad or good move. I do accept it’s done and I’m getting past it now.
You may think Schneider and Church suck and that LM will be a superstar, but I struggle with those assessments all around as well.
The other side of the familiarity with the staff issue is whether Castro could be a significant chip in a big deal. (eg–a fever-induced fantasy of the Twins wanting to give Mauer some DH time to save his health…) If Castro goes in a trade I´m sure the Mets would bring in DeFelice and Alomar to ST to pass along some knowledge. Plus that imparted by the Jacket, the bullpen coach, the manager, etc.
LF– are you being paid by the word?
I type 70 wpm and I have an mind that is constantly set to “churn”. I’m not saying its set to “genius” or nothing but, for better or for worse, it just don’t quit.
But I gotta agree with kiljoy to a degree…
There is no upside to a deal this rough, other than the fact that… the Mighty Delkhoz!… and others like him won’t have to have their ears sullied by such horrible things as the rap music and confidence from a player under 30.
Heaven forfend.
Some things, there’s just no upside.
Seeing all sides of a story is awesome, most of the time, but you also still gotta be open to the idea that… every once in a while… there are things that are just right or just wrong and stand your ground.
You can “sensitive” and “understanding” yourself off a cliff if you don’t every once in a while know which is the occasional thing to paint as black and white, dig in and take your stand.
See as negative example: the Democratic party since roughly 1978.
As usual, LFM, you just make me tired. sigh.
As others have said, you can find enough legitimate reasons to have problems with the trade without engaging in ridiculous hyperbole and significantly exaggerating and devaluing the abilities of the players involved. But then — that’s your pattern, isn’t it: if it’s a young kid, make excuses; if it’s a veteran, then they necessarily must he all washed up and useless.
Funny, but I seem to recall that — far from making weak groundouts, Luis Castillo was one of the ONLY Mets who /a/ hit over .300 in Sept (.316 in fact, .822 OPS) and /b/ made clutch hits in September (15 RBIs ande 21 R). Ryan Church is a perfectly acceptable average corner OF with mildly plus defensive skills. Schneider is one of the best defensive catchers in the league — still — and very very hard to run against. In fact, in his “declining” last year, he was still run upon by the second fewest runners of all catchers in the league — and still made league average throwing out those who dared. If we can keep runners on 1st base instead of routinely going to second as they did on LoDuca, that will likely save a lot of runs right there.
But of course, in LFM’s bizarroworld, actual statistics and facts don’t count nearly as much as sentimentality and love for the prospect, whether or not the prospect actually ever develops into a player.
Great journal, MFS! I think you encapsulated the feelings of a great number of us who had problems with the trade, but don’t think it’s the most disastrous event since Kazmir/Zambrano.
Very well done, MFS71. I don’t like giving up Milledge, but, 95% of the fanbase has lost their collective minds. The truth is, from my vantage point, this deal did make the Mets better. Schneider is an upgrade over LoDuca, both defensively and handling a pitching staff, (not to mention he also hit more HRs than LoDuca), and Church is an upgrade both offensively and defensively over Green. Yes, I would have preferred to see Milledge develop as a Met. But, clearly Milledge’s value is not what it was circa trade deadline 2006. Yes, my first reaction was disappointment, but, Milledge brought back two solid starting players.
MFS71, this is a well thought out journal. I just tend not to agree with it.I am trying to rationalize this trade in my mind, but it makes no sense to me at all.
Ok, Brian Schneider can catch. He is supposedly good as a signal caller, and definitely better than Lo Duca in terms of throwing out runners, but how much does that improve the Mets. Is our team ERA dropping .50 now, because we have the wondrous Mr. Schneider and his ability to call for just the right pitch? As much as the Nats pitching seems to have overperformed last year (and that was only their due to theit veteran bullpen; their starters still sucked), their pitching sure did suck in 06. And we all know Schneider can’t hit to save his life. Is he worth Lastings Milledge?
Church is an ok player. He is of about the same value as Milledge right now, and will see Milledge surpass him in the coming years.
It just seems to me that the Mets have made a superficial change that did not improve the team and did not address the flaws of last year’s team. We still have not upgraded our pitching from last year. While I am not willing to grade Omar’s entire offseason until we see what he does in terms of bringing in pitching, I am willing to grade him on this one trade. He gets an F-minus.
finally somebody looks at it the right way. Isn’t it possible Milledge was overhyped playing in New York? If a flawed prospect like him played in Minnesota, or Seattle, we would never hear of him, but in New York every top prospect is compared to a future hall of famer . The worst part that may come out of this deal, is after all this talk about Gomez and Fernando being better prospects than Lmillz, and they turn out to be busts. As of now, it’s not the end of the world, we got a solid catcher, and an outfielder who may turn out to be a 25 homerun guy, not even being a middle of the order guy. He’s replacing Green, who looked at times as if he didn’t want to hurt the ball, and turned into the preverbial 4-3. The fact is, for ‘08 this deal is advantage Mets, after that it’s a crapshoot, because Schneider will be aging, and Milledge may have turned into a more productive player. For now, there’s been too much overexaggeration. Minaya obviously checked in wih other GMs, and knew they weren’t interested in Lastings, and he wanted him out, and got the best(and maybe only) deal he could’ve gotten. Don’t jump off the bridge yet
LMAO, Dave!! Now THAT was a well-thought out comment! :-)
Ok, some people will disagree with this…but how about the Delmon Young for Matt Garza deal. Milledge was never quite as highly regarded as Young, but both have performed on about the same level in MLB (though young has far more at-bats, because God forbid Willie should play a young guy). Throw in the fact that Young once threw a bat at an umpire! (far worse than the bullshit they put on Milledge) and TB was still able to get Matt Garza for him.
Even though we do not know how all the GMs feel about Milledge, does it not seem plausible that he might have been at least an attractive piece to the Twins in a possible Garza deal? Young may be the more highly regarded player, but Milledge does not seem so far behind that he isn’t worth any kind of pitching.
I can’t disagree with you on the Milledge-Delmon comparison, redstripe. But for whatever reason, the Twins just didn’t want Milledge and his name never came up (all the Mets-Twins’ rumors pointed to Gomez).
I think (hope) that Minaya certainly would’ve taken that trade if it was offered. But I don’t it was.
hey, Minaya is on a roll…
Milledge for Church and Schneider.
Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom for Jason Vargas.
Heath Bell and Royce Ring for Ben Johnson and Jon Adkins.
Brian Bannister for Ambiorix Burgos.
Oh man, Chuck, good point.
If Burgos can ever get healthy, I think he will be really good but…
Otherwise, hell yes.
Sorry to step on toes, bud, but in “carefully reading” your journal, I think it rationalizing and sugarcoats the issue. My two cents. Hey, if you even do a cursory reading of my reply, I don’t think stated the opinion that LM would be a superstar or that BS and RC necessarily suck. Not worth Milledge, but that doesn’t mean they suck.
Of the following 3 OF prospects, which would you rather have?
1) a kid who managed to survive AA at an extremely young age, but has never dominated anywhere; avg frame; projects as a corner OF
2) a kid who managed to survive AA at a relatively young age, but has never dominated anywhere; large frame; incredible speed, projects as a CF and top basestealer
3) a kid who hit well in AAA after dominating in the low minors, and managed to survive in the majors at a very young age; avg frame; good speed, projects as an average CF or above-avg corner OF
It’s hard for me to believe that every exec of a rebuilding team would rank the 3rd guy last on his wish list. Proven performance counts for something, right? If all that matters is upside, we should trade Deolis Guerra, Jon Neise, and any athletic 18-year-olds in our organization instantly, before GMs wise up.
More likely, I think Omar jumped at a chance to slightly upgrade the Mets for 2008, and cost the team potential rewards that would have been far greater.
I believe the Milledge trade will rank as one of the worst Met trades ever - not worse than Ryan, Dykstra or Kazmir - but certainly one of the top ten and likely one of the top five. Whenever you trade a young twenty year old, top prospect who has shown very good performance at the major league level for two middle aged/older veterans who are slightly better than average, you have to check your medicine cabinet and count the number pills you’ve taken. And when you make the trade “in division”, it has the potential to hurt even more. Who knows, maybe Omar felt he owed one to the Nats – but this move bordered on ridiculous.
It made absolutely no sense. Brian Schneider might have had special defensive capabilities a few years ago when he threw out nearly half the runners who ran against him, but over the last two years his numbers have only been somewhat better than average (at 30%) – and at 31, that rate will more than likely decline, not improve. On offense Schneider’s bat has never been great and over the last two years, his hitting has been down right atrocious – settling in around a .650 OPS (by comparison LoDuca’s had a .690 OPS in an off year last year). Ryan Church is a good player but again, just somewhat above average with limited upward potential at age 29. Minaya touted his defense - we’ll see how good it is - but he only had 4 OF assists - which doesn’t say much for his arm. And I can’t imagine he’ll be better than Endy Chavez. Regarding his hitting - he is good against righties (with nearly an .870 OPS) but he’s not that good against lefties (.775 OPS). In total, he is not all that different from Shawn Green’ – who last year had a .830 OPS against righties and .780 against lefties. In my mind Church has to be platooned with a right handed RF to make him effective - and we lost our best platoon in Milledge.
Understanding Milledge’s value is not hard. He had a stellar minor league career – always very young for the league he played in and averaging around a .900 OPS. Over his last two years in the majors he moved his OPS up 100 points – with last year coming in at nearly .800 (as a 22 year old). More importantly, he showed dominating force with a .956 OPS against lefties and hit exceedingly well at Shea with a .964 OPS (and that’s hard to do). Keith Hernandez who has an astute eye, said repeatedly throughout the year that Milledge has the one of the best bat speeds in the league and that as the game slows down for him he will only get better. From my perspective it is very conceivable that Milledge will have a .900 OPS by the time he’s 25 - and that would put him on track to be a big time player for his career. The case against Milledge is his attitude and some of the things he says, but his talent is unquestionable – and let’s not think that we didn’t inherit some potential problems with Church – maybe he feels a need to be more public about his religious views because of his name, but insulting Jews publicly was certainly not a well thought through idea (apologies or not). We’ll see how he responds when the New York media turns up the heat on his evangelical views.
Omar said that he made the trade because the team needed change from last year and that this trade made the team better defensively. But he was misguided and wrong in that thinking an, as a result, lost an important player in the process. The real deficiency of the team was pitching – something Omar poorly engineered last off-season (getting rid of Bell, Bradford, Bannister, Lindstrom, Owens, and Oliver, giving Mota and Schowenweis absurd contracts and signing a bunch of washed out veterans and career AAA players for the balance of the pitching roster). The offense and the defense (or Milledge for that matter) were not the problem - it was pitching – period.
Trading Milledge wasn’t a bad thing to do (as was trading Kazmir). It was what we got back in return that was so awful. Omar didn’t get a young promising starter or a couple of good relievers (hell, he didn’t even get the best right fielder on the Nats in Austin Kearns). He got two somewhat better than average vets to “fill holes” in the field. Will their presence really be that much different than LoDuca and Green? Probably not. If Milledge’s value was so low on the trade market that Minaya could only get Schneider and Church, then the right answer was to hold onto Milledge and let him continue to improve – while simultaneously investing in his off-the-field coaching (which seemed to progress markedly from the year before).
Omar started his Met GM career with a couple of magical off seasons, but last year his decisions were outright disastrous and this year, he’s off to another rousing start. His maneuvering appears to be very predictable and as a result very susceptible to other GMs. He likes to move early in the trade (and free agent) market to fill his less pressing holes and then concentrate on his bigger issues afterwards. Knowing his penchant for needing to get the catcher and RF position squared away (without great free agents available), Stan Kasten and Jim Bowden used the impending winter meetings as a pressure point to steal from the Mets. The Nats played their cards perfectly while Omar was played like the worn out violin he is becoming. We’ll see what the rest of the off season brings, but if this first move is any indication, we are in for another rough winter.
My problem with this trade is that we made the trade. I do not think that Omar could have turned Milledge into Haren or 2 quality relievers but instead decided to take Church and Schneider. I think this was the best we could get for Lastings right now for various reasons (injuries, perceived attitude, level of development). Lastings in his time in the big leagues did not disprove some of his doubts (being able to hit a breaking pitch, not having power and maturity), but did show some nice plate pressance and had a few very nice streaks and some big hits while here.
Overall, he clearly lowered his value over the past two years from where it was. as a result I would very much have liked to put Lastings in RF and let him either build more value or burn out than trade him for what we got.
However, if you go in with the mindset that we had to trade LM, then I think Omar did make the best deal he could have. I would have liked to see a younger player in this trade with some future to add to the mix, but he got two solid starters that will help this team over the next 2-3 years.
It is a bad trade and I still hate it, but I think Omar did the best he could out of what he had to work with.
I miss him
I posted this in a mystery thread. Good luck finding it. :)